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  • [-]  wlll 46 days ago link
    "I also don't think I was comparing it to creating a hostile environment where women feel objectified"

    Lighten up.

    Reply
  • [-]  wlll 87 days ago link
    When I'm standing up I tend to move about more and wander off while I'm thinking about stuff. I definitely get more exercise than when I'm sitting down.
    Reply
  • [-]  wlll 104 days ago link
    I graphed the old and new prices so you can see how they compare:

    http://willj.net/static/amazon_s3_old_and_new_price_comparis...

    Reply
  • [-]  wlll 111 days ago link
    "why should we pay someone tens of thousands of dollars to do it?"

    Because it costs us less and we have better deliverability. Also, 1% of 50 million emails a month is a lot of undelivered mail.

    Reply
    • [-]  jonknee 111 days ago link
      Do you have better deliverability though? You said you use Campaign Monitor for newsletters and those are a different type of mail than transactional emails from an application (much more likely to be flagged as spam too!). Seems like two different things and would be hard to compare.

      Campaign Monitor isn't what you'd use for your apps, you want something like SendGrid.

      Reply
      • [-]  getsat 110 days ago link
        Sendgrid + their whitelabel stuff (SPF/DKIM) = better than 99% delivery for over 100k emails/day.

        SG is probably the most pleasant email-related experience I've ever had.

        Reply
        • [-]  potyl 110 days ago link
          We use SendGrid too at my company. It's really great and easy. Integrating with their SMTP server is really simple.
          Reply
      • [-]  timfalls 109 days ago link
        thanks to @getsat and @potyl for providing some insight to their experience with SendGrid. we appreciate the testimonials!

        the discussion around managing email in-house vs. paying a 3rd party to do it for you, is of significant complexity, as is evidenced by the length of the original 37sig post and this comment thread.

        i think it's important for each and every company to evaluate their own unique situation - the needs of their product, the resources at their disposal, the role email plays in their overall business model, their relative experience/expertise in email vs. other elements of the customer experience they are building, the maturity of the company/product, etc. it would be very unwise to make a decision on this type of matter, based solely (or predominately) on factors like "successful company X does it this way", or "successful company Y does it that way."

        every company is different, and they often face this specific decision at different junctures in their life cycle.

        the most useful lesson that can be gleaned from this conversation (which i've really enjoyed following), is this: as a business leader, entrepreneur, developer, etc, you have options! if you want to do it yourself, it's possible -- if 37signals can do it, so can you. but if you don't want to do it yourself, or aren't confident in your ability (for whatever reason), then there are several awesome companies out there to choose from, each of which has its own strengths and weaknesses, which puts you in the position to select the most ideal solution for your unique circumstances.

        that's all :)

        Reply
  • [-]  wlll 111 days ago link
    The whole app, so both.
    Reply
  • [-]  wlll 111 days ago link
    We only have stats for third parties for the time period in the article, but for our products they're here:

    http://basecamphq.com/uptime

    http://highrisehq.com/uptime

    http://campfirenow.com/uptime

    http://backpackit.com/uptime

    Reply
  • [-]  wlll 115 days ago link
    Your new designer will be able to have a crack at an original homepage ;)

    http://i.imgur.com/fRI8Q.jpg

    http://i.imgur.com/KbQo0.jpg

    Reply
    • [-]  outworlder 115 days ago link
      So, these guys get YCombinator and other investors to give them $1.2M and they still have to rip off 37 signals' design.

      I wonder which startup got rejected in their place.

      Reply
      • [-]  nomadomatic 114 days ago link
        What if curebit copied highrise's product - not the design mind you, but the core functionality of the product - and used a completely different, original design to dress up the product? Would you throw a similar tantrum?

        This is something that's always perplexed me. Companies copy other companies' business models and compete for the same customers all the time, but that's considered fair game. But if a design is copied, shit hits the fan.

        Frankly, I'd rather someone copy my design and go after a diff niche of customers than copy my product and come after my customers.

        To the guys at Curebit - ignore this noise. The focus should be on creating an awesome product, getting paying customers and generating profits. You guys have an awesome product and deserve the funding. Congrats :)

        P.S. You should remove the hotlinks tho. No need to use their bandwidth.

        Reply
        • [-]  ahoyhere 114 days ago link
          Wait, do you think that there aren't already 10s, maybe even a 100+ products out there with the same basic functionality as Highrise? Because there are. There were before Highrise, and now, after. There are more every year.

          The concept of a CRM is not something you can "copy" because it simply exists. And most web-based software works in roughly the same way. So far, most 37signals products have very few truly unique features, because their focus is on simplicity and less software.

          Accordingly, 37signals doesn't care if somebody launches a new CRM.

          They also don't seem to care when live chat apps like Hipchat have one or two features that 37signals pioneered.

          Stealing a design outright, on the other hand, is not growing or improving or adopting a concept (e.g. "contact management that tracks deals", "it should x when you y") but their actual IP.

          Reply
          • [-]  zackattack 114 days ago link
            >Stealing a design outright, on the other hand, is not growing or improving or adopting a concept (e.g. "contact management that tracks deals", "it should x when you y") but their actual IP.

            Can you cite legislation within the US, or a successful civil suit?

            Reply
        • [-]  joedev 114 days ago link
          First: it's the law. Copyright covers "original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium". It expressly does not cover "procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery". http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/102.html

          Second: if curebit used Highrise code verbatim in their product, I bet hell yes there would be tantrum about it.

          Reply
        • [-]  keesmacklin 114 days ago link
          Wait, so are you saying that we should be more outraged when business models and customers are stolen in a borderline illegal way? This is a valid point and we probably should be more outraged.

          Or are you saying that it should be ok to rip off someone's design and hotlink to their assets?

          Reply
        • [-]  jamesau 114 days ago link
          Agreed.
          Reply
    • [-]  jcampbell1 114 days ago link
      Thanks for that. Now I am far less sad about stealing Curebit's concept. Their idea is fantastic, but I found it easier to just copy the concept than integrate with their APIs.

      Does anyone else find it strange that the article claims they have 1000 customers, and minimum pricing of $50/month, but they raised $1.2M? Why bother raising money if you are already close to a run-rate of $1M? My guess is they have closer to 1000 signups, not active 1000 customers.

      Reply
      • [-]  mp3jeep01 114 days ago link
        I doubt very many people find it strange -- just because you have revenue, or are profitable, does not mean you're "in the clear". Companies typically raise additional capital so they can accelerate their growth. Your assumption that companies only raise because they aren't cash-flow positive is misguided.
        Reply
        • [-]  jcampbell1 114 days ago link
          That wasn't my assumption. It is the scale that I find strange. If the company is pulling in $100k/month, then having $1M in the bank is not going to significantly change what you can accomplish, but the effort required to raise the money is a substantial distraction.
          Reply
      • [-]  redguava 114 days ago link
        Revenue is not the same as profit, they could very easily be running at a loss even with that amount of revenue. We have seen this in extremes with companies like Groupon lately.
        Reply
        • [-]  dkrich 114 days ago link
          By their founder's own admission, they have three employees. Not sure what they're doing that would burn through that much cash. Either their business model is severely lacking, or their spending is out of control. Of course it is possible that they aren't making any money.
          Reply
    • [-]  allangrant 115 days ago link
      Hey - I'm one of the founders of Curebit, and yes - it was a boneheaded move..

      We had a different homepage, were a/b testing different pages, came across the 37signals post and were like 'wow we should see how that converts!' We are big fans of rails and what 37signals is doing and did not really think through the implications of what we were doing. We just kind of thought about it as a fun test to run.

      Clearly it was stupid. It was not meant to offend anyone and we are adding credit where due. (We'll take it down if DHH insists!)

      Our new designer will take a crack at more than our homepage... we need all our UI "designed".. not redesigned, but designed - because we're primarily backend guys. Yes, this landing page variation was heavily inspired (read: blatantly ripped off) from Highrise -- because these are the peeps we aspire to, and they've done a lot of testing to figure out what works: http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2991-behind-the-scenes-ab-tes...

      We're running a "ghetto test" - this homepage variant does not even share a common CSS file with the rest of the code base. It's been live less than a week.

      The idea was to just see how the conversion characteristics were before investing a lot of time into making a "real design" out of the lessons (prominent testimonial, light copy focused on value props). Hence the hot linking, inline styles, etc. It is personally my fault for not including a credit to Highrise for the design.. that credit is well deserved and will be added shortly - a big oversight on my part.. we launch some stuff fast (other things deliberately), and this was one of those fast things.

      Lesson to us: add credits, and be more explicit what we're testing... ask permission instead of asking for forgiveness. In the meantime, please forgive us? :)

      Reply
      • [-]  timsally 115 days ago link
        We'll take it down if DHH insists!

        It is personally my fault for not including a credit to Highrise for the design

        Lesson to us: add credits

        Crediting someone for their property doesn't make stealing it ok. By default, stealing is wrong. Waiting for an objection and/or linking to the owner doesn't change that. This seems like a problematic worldview for a young company.

        Reply
        • [-]  earbitscom 115 days ago link
          It's not stealing, it's copying. 37signals still has their original. Let's get an upvote here because I know everyone in this forum agrees.
          Reply
          • [-]  zefhous 115 days ago link
            Actually, since they are hotlinking to some assets directly from the other site, they are indeed stealing.

            Also, please don't ask for upvotes or assume that others agree with you.

            Reply
            • [-]  earbitscom 115 days ago link
              Oh, trust me, the upvote request and everything about this comment were filled with deeply engrained sarcasm.
              Reply
              • [-]  zefhous 115 days ago link
                Sorry about that! Now I feel quite silly...
                Reply
                • [-]  redorb 114 days ago link
                  I actually needed your comment to understand, so it was useful at least once.
                  Reply
          • [-]  dissident 114 days ago link
            I actually don't care that they copied the design, but that YC actually funded people who thought that was a professional thing to do.
            Reply
      • [-]  ahoyhere 114 days ago link
        The real lesson here is a hidden one for YCombinator startups:

        YC gives you money, but they apparently do not provide you with advisors, handlers, lawyers or PR people who will intervene to stop you from making such a boneheaded, potentially explosive move, nor step in and help you figure out how to gracefully recover from a mistake.

        Seriously? Credit where credit is due? Ha ha, it was stupid, we stole your design AND your assets, hee, aren't we a trip, funding, something something, TechCrunch, split testing makes it alllll better.

        Reply
        • [-]  shagg 114 days ago link
          If you need an adviser, handler, lawyer or PR person to tell you "don't blatantly copy/steal other people's shit", you shouldn't be in business, you should go back to kindergarten.
          Reply
          • [-]  ahoyhere 114 days ago link
            I agree. But the business of companies like YCombinator is to simply bet on lots of inexperienced, green young people and hope some of them pan out.

            When they invite you to their program or (better yet) get you more funding, it probably feels like a mandate. Which makes things so much worse without guidance.

            Reply
      • [-]  redguava 114 days ago link
        Your response here makes it worse not better. You copied from them blatantly including linking to their assets and then your first lesson learnt is "add credits"... really?

        You are still not planning on taking it down, just adding a credit to their site?

        I personally would never use a service that has this level of integrity, I wouldn't trust any of my information with it.

        Reply
      • [-]  neilkelty 115 days ago link
        You realize you set your company up for enormous civil penalties here - $200-$150,000.

        And, since you've admitted to stealing their site straight up - it might be "willful and deliberate", it could be considered a criminal act.

        I'm no lawyer - but one probably wrote this: http://www.lib.purdue.edu/uco/CopyrightBasics/penalties.html

        Reply
      • [-]  dmerfield 115 days ago link
        Close, but no cigar: http://mee.la/28983
        Reply
        • [-]  sachingulaya 114 days ago link
          Wow, they copied both of their designs. Ouch.
          Reply
        • [-]  papalalu 115 days ago link
          oof
          Reply
      • [-]  dkrich 114 days ago link
        Please stop using the term "ghetto testing." Nobody knows what the hell that means and nobody thinks that that's okay.

        The proper course is to apologize, take it down, and move on. Not make lame, half-assed excuses which just perpetuate the situation.

        Reply
      • [-]  keesmacklin 114 days ago link
        Looks like you were using the design for a new product as well (http://www.sharebooster.com).

        http://i.imgur.com/MXCuN.png

        You going to take that down also?

        Reply
        • [-]  WadeF 114 days ago link
          That logo looks an awful lot like the Luanchbit logo as well. http://www.launchbit.com/
          Reply
          • [-]  joemoon 114 days ago link
            By "looks an awful lot like" WadeF actually means "looks exactly like"...

            I had to really concentrate to see the difference.

            Reply
        • [-]  designNERD 114 days ago link
          Wow these guys have absolutely no integrity.
          Reply
      • [-]  jsavimbi 114 days ago link
        > did not really think through the implications of what we were doing

        But the part about stealing someone else's work and passing it off as your own obviously had some thought put into it. One could only imagine what other parts of your app were repurposed from third parties.

        Reply
      • [-]  kingsidharth 114 days ago link
        Lesson to you: Make your own shit if you want credibility.
        Reply
      • [-]  rskopecek 114 days ago link
        Allangrant,  as you stated you are a back end developer.  While that's good to note, it doesn't exclude the outcome that DHH and the community have already commented on.

        However, I think something that is missing is a little more guidance.  Other than the issues others have communicated, the web page showed that your company hasn't established, even in very raw form, it's own style that is best for its users.  It's normal to reflect and be inspired by others designs.  I would even recommend that you take screenshots of the design styles that speak to you.  From that point though, the screen shots should be used as "internal" discussion materials that help your company find the essence of its own style.  That style should always be taking what's best for your product/service and user base, into the style characteristics.

        Once you've found your core style, express it and iterate over it using each iteration as a piece of more relavent inspiration to your style (37Signals recently released a cool video on their blog that demonstrates this process through their eyes).  The results should make you proud enough to express and share it with your customers.  Only at that point do you finally make it public.  After that keep iterating over it.  If you utilize external inspiration, make sure that you've iterated over it enough that your style doesn't feel like a knockoff.  You should be able to identify this easily and odds are, if you've been going through all this it won't be.  However, if you have concerns just take screen shots of your style and the screen shots of what externally inspired you,...show them to some people who don't work for your company and weren't involved with the design process.  They should be able to 1) pick up on your style and 2) agree that it isn't a knockoff.  Given the situation you are in, I would recommend this heavily to help give piece of mind.

        I realize that you wanted to gain from the lessons learned from 37Signals internal design iteration process as well as other companies.  However, if you note what I said above, it means they were focusing "also" on their product and their customers.  Which means if you directly reflect your design from theirs, you weren't focusing enough on your customers.  You might have intended to give your customers a great design experience, but without going through the process above, your website is considered not authentic...and as a result people focus on the their feeling of "this looks oddly familiar" instead of focusing on what your product can do for them.

        Many, if not all of the people who have commented have gone through their own artistic design process to build one or more designs.  And at times it can be "hell" (fun, but still) to create something that the designer feels is good enough to share/use.  It is a compliment that someone is inspired by your design.  But when it's closer to a knockoff it can make the designer feel like they sacrificed him/her-self for your free ride.  If they intended for it to be given away, then the benefit you receive gives them whatever good feeling they were looking for.  I'm sure you have, like many people, worked insane hours that took away from family, friends, and even yourself.

        I hope humility, honesty, and hard work guide your company to a design that you can be proud of.

        Good luck and I hope this all helps.

        Reply
        • [-]  rskopecek 114 days ago link
          Allangrant, 

          I do have to say, based on the evidence that DHH keeps unearthing, it does not seem like your company has put forth the immediate effort needed to represent that your company is taking to heart what is being said by DHH and others.  That unfortunately is effectively like a strike 2.  First for the action, and secondly for the inaction.  Yes the inaction is both in relation to PR and actual outcome of change.  

          For the future viability of your company, you might consider immediately removing all content and styles even remotely considered to be "borrowed" (by any definition)...even if it means your websites are bland and almost blank.  That however only closes the door on any indiscretions.  Going through the challenges of repentance and acquiring forgiveness, is something only your company's heart can achieve.  Seeking guidance would also probably be a good idea to get you through this current PR issue.

          On your twitter pic it shows that you wish to stop sopa.  In a recent case, GoDaddy had their own PR problem that cost them dearly.  Given that your company is a start up, even with $1.2M in funding, appropriately negative PR like this can cost the company it's life.

          *PS: 37Signals has 2 good books to read.  I believe "Rework" even has some comments regarding when you screw up as a company.  However, since it is the authors themselves to which your company has afflicted....

          I hope your company is able to make the right choices.

          Reply
      • [-]  asianmack 114 days ago link
        You missed this in the 37signals post you referenced.

        "Please note: What works for us may not work for you. Please do your own testing. Your conversion rates may suffer if you copy us."

        Reply
        • [-]  gmansoor 112 days ago link
          In this case, its certainly would suffer
          Reply
      • [-]  papalalu 115 days ago link
        I don't think credit is really going to cut it in this situation.. and permission is unlikely to have been given had you actually asked.
        Reply
        • [-]  dlokshin 115 days ago link
          To be fair, everyone and their mother has ripped off 37 Signals pricing table and this never seemed to bother anyone.
          Reply
          • [-]  lachyg 114 days ago link
            They ripped off the concept and idea of the pricing table, yet they didn't flat out take the design and just modify the text. These guys took every single element, changed no style.
            Reply
          • [-]  dshultz 114 days ago link
            I agree - when it comes to web design, people steal ideas from everywhere. The way I see this as a bit different, is that they actually took the design verbatim and then cross linked the assets...so technically, they stole the bandwidth and images which may have royalty's associated with them.

            As for duplicating the layout and taking the concepts, that's fair game in my opinion. The actual graphics should not be stolen and re-used.

            Reply
    • [-]  comice 115 days ago link
      you can make the smallest viable product even smaller when you pinch designs and externalise the costs of your asset hosting!
      Reply
      • [-]  jamesau 114 days ago link
        LOL. Eric Ries would be proud.
        Reply
    • [-]  Xorlev 115 days ago link
      Thus ensuring we will never do business with Curebit. That's lazy and unprofessional at best, even if you're A/B testing. Use Optimizely and host your own assets.
      Reply
    • [-]  ZephyrP 115 days ago link
      Wow, that's embarrassing.
      Reply
    • [-]  samstave 115 days ago link
      Heh - wow.

      I'd like to hear this story; is it a curebit founder? Or maybe a CL freelancer they hired...

      Reply
      • [-]  dmix 115 days ago link
        I got a different homepage: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/533753/Screen%20Shot%202012-01-27%20...

        It's possible they are experimenting with the 37signals design to see if it has legs, then will release a more original incarnation?

        Reply
        • [-]  sriramk 115 days ago link
          DHH just tweeted that they actually serve some of the assets from the Highrise site. That's bad http://yfrog.com/mm5icqhj
          Reply
          • [-]  re5et 115 days ago link
            they are asking to get those switched out with something horrible
            Reply
          • [-]  farmdawgnation 115 days ago link
            In re the previous sub-comment about switching out the assets: I think some Ocean Marketing images are in order.
            Reply
        • [-]  wlll 115 days ago link
          I get the version you see when I use Chrome, I get the other version 100% of the time in Safari.
          Reply
          • [-]  stouset 115 days ago link
            The choice of A/B test is stored in a cookie.
            Reply
    • [-]  asianmack 115 days ago link
      I like this guy.
      Reply
    • [-]  BrianMatch 115 days ago link
      Personally, I don't think it's a big deal. The Curebits designer was obviously inspired by the Highrise design, but didn't copy it pixel-by-pixel. If it helps Curebits convert more customers then more power to them--it's not like they're stealing Highrise customers.

      Linking to someone else's assets, however, is just wrong.

      Reply
      • [-]  acrum 115 days ago link
        "Inspired"? Sorry, but are you trolling? It's about as close to an exact copy as you can get.
        Reply
        • [-]  outworlder 115 days ago link
          Probably, he meant that the happy smiling guy was replaced by another.

          They could have gone with a headset hottie instead (http://www.headsethotties.com/).

          Reply
      • [-]  jsavimbi 114 days ago link
        They didn't copy it pixel-by-pixel because they're either too lazy to do so, too stupid to know how or both. And no, there will be no power to them.
        Reply
      • [-]  metalab 115 days ago link
        "but it didn't copy it pixel-by-pixel" They used their image assets. How much more pixel-by-pixel can you get?
        Reply
  • [-]  wlll 115 days ago link
    memcached is standalone, no one server knows about any other server, so at a simple level, no. It also can't go out and fetch data from else where, it's either got the data or it hasn't.

    You could write a more complex cacheing layer on top of memcached that looked first in memcached, then fetched from solid state storage if it wasn't there. That's kind of what we will be using it for by wrapping Rails around it.

    Reply
    • [-]  meatmanek 114 days ago link
      > You could write a more complex cacheing layer on top of memcached that looked first in memcached, then fetched from solid state storage if it wasn't there.

      I wonder how that would compare to just setting up an SSD as swap space.

      Reply
  • [-]  wlll 115 days ago link
    Luckily we bought single threaded RAM ;)
    Reply
  • [-]  wlll 115 days ago link
    It's in a secure datacentre surrounded by millions and millions of dollars of other equipment (some of it ours), it should be OK :)
    Reply